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Freyr [not main; main is Awoo] @fallerOfFalls@octodon.social

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Wack Playstation Sup! 🙊 🇮🇸 🍏 @HerraBRE@mastodon.xyz

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Freyr [not main; main is Awoo] @fallerOfFalls@octodon.social

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Wack Playstation Sup! 🙊 🇮🇸 🍏 @HerraBRE@mastodon.xyz

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Freyr [not main; main is Awoo] @fallerOfFalls@octodon.social

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Wack Playstation Sup! 🙊 🇮🇸 🍏 @HerraBRE@mastodon.xyz

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Bob Mottram @bob@social.freedombone.net
@herrabre @falleroffalls if the fediverse continues to increase in numbers of active users then I expect there to be a variety of approaches towards resolving the problems of social relations. Instances which recruit a voluntary or perhaps even professional police force (if they can get donations for that) will eventually just duplicate the problems of the silos. You end up with a bureaucracy and a system of rules, and then it becomes a question of who makes the rules. Even if you started out with the intention of reducing harassment, or whatever, before you know it you've got the same old familiar problems.

The people who want to use blocks as a political tactic to pressure this or that admin are just trying to create a status hierarchy with themselves at the top of a chain of command. It's a familiar game.
dick_turpin @dick_turpin

@bob @fallerOfFalls @HerraBRE So ignoring for the minute the fact that you can block them what's to stop someone setting up their own instance and harassing others? You can't kick them off their own instance and as has been pointed out the whole system is federated, how do you exclude them from the federation?

What constitutes harassment anyway? Continually belittling someone? Personal insults? Name calling?
More: pastebin.com/882k0sQp

Linux Walt (@lnxw48a1) @lnxw48a1@nu.federati.net
> What constitutes harassment anyway? Continually belittling someone? Personal insults? Name calling?

Or maybe disagreeing with someone? Some of the harassment threads I've seen blow up in the past few weeks were little more than that.
pettter ✅ @pettter@social.umeahackerspace.se
@lnxw48a1 @dickturpin What have the disagreements been about? There's a difference between "yeah I think socialism probably wouldn't work in practise" and "yeah I don't think gay/trans people actually exist and/or deserve to be treated as fellow humans".
dick_turpin @dick_turpin

@pettter @lnxw48a1
*I can only answer for myself*

While I suspect lots would find your second example highly offensive I would have to say that while I disagree with that statement I would die defending your right to say it. Without freedom of speech Totalitarianism and censure creeps in.

pettter ✅ @pettter@social.umeahackerspace.se
@dickturpin @lnxw48a1 It really doesn't, though, unless you are claiming that for example Germany is closer to totalitarianism than, say the US:
dick_turpin @dick_turpin

@pettter @lnxw48a1 What I mean is you will end up with a small group who will meet out justice to users for the most pathetic of reasons or for reasons of cronyism.

While I agree bullying ect. needs to be stamped out I cannot fathom why supposed victims don't block their so called tormentors? It's not rocket science.

pettter ✅ @pettter@social.umeahackerspace.se
@dickturpin @lnxw48a1  >What I mean is you will end up with a small group who will meet out justice to users for the most pathetic of reasons or for reasons of cronyism.

Why, though? I don't see how that necessarily follows. Are people not capable of moderating in reasonable ways? Is civilization impossible?

> why supposed victims don't block their so called tormentors?

Because it's cheaper and easier for abusers and harassers to create new accounts to use for harassment than for the abused to keep blocking and blocking and _meanwhile suffering the harassment_.
dick_turpin @dick_turpin

@pettter @lnxw48a1 No, I don't think they are. We're humans after all. It's a nice idea that we attain some sort of Nirvana but I won't hold my breath. ;-)

pettter ✅ @pettter@social.umeahackerspace.se
@dickturpin @lnxw48a1 Just to clarify: You think "reasonable moderation standards" is as unattainable as Nirvana?
dick_turpin @dick_turpin

@pettter @lnxw48a1 "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" -- John Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton

Hell I've even seen people who've signed the Code of Conduct piss all over it while in a blind rage and still to this day they've not made amends for it.

Every day we see some government, police force etc. etc. hauled over the coals for abuse of power or privilege. why should a social media board be any different?

pettter ✅ @pettter@social.umeahackerspace.se
@dickturpin @lnxw48a1 I'm not sure how you get from "moderating a voluntary safelist on a minor federated social network" to "absolute power", but you do you.

People are not perfect, I agree, which is why we help each other, and strive for better procedures, protocols, and a better culture, but honestly I think that it's quite possible to have reasonable moderation standards without everything turning into Nazi Germany. In particular, freedom of speech absolutism is not a prerequisite for a free society, especially not in private and voluntary associations like the fediverse.

As for the specifics actions you're alluding to, I'm afraid I don't have any input, which was why my initial question was if the disagreement amounted to "opinions" or "denial of rights", as an example.
dick_turpin @dick_turpin

@pettter @lnxw48a1 I think your deliberately twisting my words but I think you know very well what I mean. C'est la guerre

I have no desire to be on a 'Safe list' I'll take my chances with the commoners. :-)

pettter ✅ @pettter@social.umeahackerspace.se
@dickturpin @lnxw48a1 Your argument, to me, seems to be that we should not build any moderation structures because they inevitably lead to petty politics and tyrrany. Is that acccurate?

I claim that this is not true, based on being part of many different communities over the internet, and the problem for longevity and productive conversations have much more often been too lax and inconsistent moderation rather than excessive banning and moderation, and in particular, that the longest-living and best internet community I've ever been part of has a particularly strict moderation in relation to others.
dick_turpin @dick_turpin

@pettter @lnxw48a1 You should join our government. They too would like to control the Internet just like you want to control Mastodon. Your comment of "productive conversations " leads me to suspect you feel more at home on a developers list maybe even the Linux Kernel list where "Off Topic" is considered a worse crime than murder.

More. pastebin.com/DsgPn4ie

pettter ✅ @pettter@social.umeahackerspace.se
@dickturpin @lnxw48a1 I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you're from the US or the UK? In either case I have no desire at all to join your population, let alone government.

I'm not exactly sure where you're going with the namedropping and claims of seniority, and why you think that giving examples of (apparently?) failing communities would somehow prove the "moderation = tyranny" claim (which I still am not sure is your claim, but as you've chosen not to correct me _twice_, I'm going to assume that I haven't misunderstood you, please do correct me otherwise)..

As for having "productive" discussions, I prefer having conversations either for shits and giggles (with friends or presumptive friends), for genuine exchange of viewpoints and ideas (with either friends or strangers or just others), or for a thousand other purposes. I find that harassment doesn't help for either of these things, and that moderation and community standards does help.
Linux Walt (@lnxw48a1) @lnxw48a1@nu.federati.net
@pettter @dick_turpin Hey, could you guys untag me from this conversation? Thanks.
dick_turpin @dick_turpin

@lnxw48a1 It's Yeah, no worries. Sorry about that. :-)

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